Hindu girlhood in the diaspora

[lovecatcadillac]

I'm writing a novel set at an all-girl Catholic secondary school in Perth, Western Australia in the year 2003. It's based in part on my own young teenage years, and features multiple POV characters, including one girl who is Hindu and the daughter of middle-class Indian migrants. I'm not South Asian or a person of colour, and I grew up with parents who were quite anti-religion, so I'm trying to be very purposeful in writing this girl's experience.

I have a handful of questions about life in the Indian/South Asian diaspora in the early 2000s, specifically regarding teen girl sleepovers, how religiously based vegetarianism might shape social excursions with friends, and recommendations for resources on how religion might factor into a 14-year-old Hindu girl's internal life.

1. In one chapter, a group of 14 year-old girls meet up during the school holidays to see a movie and grab some lunch at a Burger King-like restaurant (i.e., a low-cost fast food joint that serves beef burgers). This is based on an afternoon in my own teenage years. However, it's occurred to me that if one of the girls was an observant Hindu, she would be likely to have been raised vegetarian, and thus might not want to eat in a restaurant where even the vegetarian options might have been cooked in close proximity to beef. With that in mind, if a young Hindu teenager in the diaspora was seeing some friends, how likely is it that she would simply eat a vegetarian option at a restaurant like Burger King? If she wasn't able to eat at a burger place, would a pizza joint or a fish-and-chip shop be more appropriate?*
2. One of the key chapters in the book centres around a sleepover birthday party held at my Indian girl character's home and attended by her friends. In conversations on and offline, women from diaspora communities (particularly South Asian) attest that they were not allowed sleepovers with friends as kids. In my own childhood, I had two different friends who were South Asian (my best friend from ages 9-12 was a migrant from India who emigrated as a baby, my best friend from ages 16 on was from Malaysia and emigrated in her mid-teens). Both girls were allowed to have sleepovers: one could only have sleepovers hosted in her own home, whereas the other was allowed to stay at other people's houses. As I've conceived my character thus far, I figure she emigrated at around age 5. To write my character's parents, are there certain hallmarks of a parent from a South Asian migrant background who would be more likely to allow sleepovers, or host sleepovers in their home?
3. I've begun researching Hinduism to see how it might factor into the worldview of a young Millennial teenager who is kind, creative, a bit eccentric, accepting of others' differences and has some trouble speaking up for herself with her friends (but is learning more about what it means to assert herself). Thus far, I haven't found a lot which is from a young, female, Millennial perspective. If anyone has any insights they would like to share, or recommendations for resources (e.g., memoirs from the South Asian diaspora, YouTube/TikTok accounts, blogs, etc.), I would appreciate it immeasurably (and would, of course, acknowledge your contribution if I ever manage to publish this darned thing).

* I figure that she might be unlikely to eat fish either, but wanted to throw fish and chips there as a possible option for something that young teens in the early 2000s in Perth might eat. Sushi wasn't a common food option in the time and place the story is set, and ice cream doesn't seem right as this chapter takes place during winter.

Comments

[raven]

I think one thing you have to be aware of is that Hinduism is non-doctrinal, meaning there are things we all do but very few "rules". Two Hindu families in the same place with the same background will handle all of this very differently just as a result of that family, and it will be further informed by where the family originally come from and their caste and cultural background.

I come from a liberal-but-normal Hindu family and I was 16 in 2003. Yes to non-beef options at Burger King (yes to fish - I am half Bengali so definitely yes to fish), yes to sleepovers at home or away though probably not with boys. I wasn't religious and honestly, a religious Hindu teenager outside of India seems very unlikely to me. It's so much of a culture, not a religion. There are of course stricter families than mine! I think what you need for your story is to decide what you need plot/character wise and construct a Hindu family that fits it, rather than the other way around. Hinduism in English-speaking memoir is rare, and so is the first-person narrative you're seeking online. We're just... not like that! Difficult to explain, I know.

However, there *are* elements of Hinduism that have shaped my internal life, which may or may not be helpful to you. I actually have to run out the door right now but can elaborate if you'd like. Try the Netflix show, Never Have I Ever - not much about Hinduism per se but the bits it does have really do get at what I'm saying.

[lovecatcadillac]

Thank you so much for these perspectives - they're incredibly valuable, especially your point about Hinduism not being doctrinal in the ways the branches of Christianity can be. It's also a relief to know that a character like mine eating non-beef options in a burger restaurant or hosting a sleepover with solely female friends wouldn't necessarily beggar belief (especially if I put thought and research into making her family feel specific). I have a good working idea of the kind of family dynamic my character exists in, and it's encouraging to know that's a good start.

I would be really interested in hearing some more of your thoughts about how Hinduism has shaped your internal life. Do you mind if I add you on here?

[raven]

Sure! On Hinduism and the internal life: I said that we're all different and we really are, but there are some things you'll notice. Most Hindus are careful about the written word - you won't see books on the floor or under people's feet, people don't kick computers - and we tend to not drink much, even if not necessarily teetotal; if we eat meat, red meat is more unlikely; we're also very unlikely to do anything religious in public or speak much about it all. You can learn plenty about the religion from the internet but I think it's worth knowing how low-key the mindset is - we're not at all like Christians, Jews or Muslims.

(I forgot to mention before, I'm British, not Australian, but very similar sort of diaspora in this respect.)

*waves from Perth*

[alias_sqbr]

Not South Asian but from Perth and about a decade older than your character, and while I'm not vegetarian myself I knew a lot of vegetarians as a uni student in the 2000s, though none were Hindu.

Utopia was THE place to eat in Perth City amongst the vegans I knew, partly because options were so limited. They sold a wide variety of South East Asian dishes but with fake meat, I think mostly tofu. I have an intolerance to soy which made it very difficult for me to find anything I could eat there, but I still got dragged there a lot by vegans because it was the only place with more than one thing on the menu they could eat. Ofc your character's omnivore friends might not be as compliant as I was :)

IMO the Happy Buddha was the far superior vegetarian restaurant, but that was I think in Nedlands and eventually shut down.

Searching for an old Utopia menu (since these days they seem to only serve bubble tea) I found a 2009 review by a vegan I knew back then, with some other restaurant reviews. Which is a bit late for you but still hopefully helpful https://veganabouttown.blogspot.com/2009/01/utopiaformosa-northbridge.html

Other that than that, from what I saw vegan students also ate a lot of chips from fish and chip shops. I think they had to be careful around things like Chiko rolls and Corn Jacks because of beef fat in the pastry.

I think one of MacDonalds or Hungry Jacks used beef fat on their chips back then but can't remember which, I think it may have been Hungry Jacks.

Vegetarians had more options, hmm... As I recall they ate a lot of cheese and vegetable based pies and sausage rolls from cafes and bakeries. Also egg/cheese and salad sandwiches though that might be too sensible for a teen.

And yeah, everyone ate vegetarian pizza, the vegans without cheese.

I'll post a link to this on my dreamwidth, since I'm mutuals with some local vegetarians and South Asians (though off the top of my head noone who is both) and some of them might have more accurate information.

And good luck with your story!

Re: *waves from Perth*

[lovecatcadillac]

These are such great insights, thank you! And thank you also for linking to my post from your blog, that's very kind.

The scene during the school holidays is set on the Cappuccino Strip in Freo. At present, I'm picturing my characters eating at the Hungry Jack's that used to be located there, but am open to having them go to the Dome Cafe instead for hot chocolates. I'm not planning on name-dropping Hungry Jack's or the Dome as such, but it's important to me to have a certain internal consistency by having the characters patronise the kinds of places that would have been on the Cappuccino Strip in 2003. (Rather than, say, having them partake of poke bowls or boba, neither of which were available on that particular street 20+ years ago.)

That said, even though I don't have any scenes set in Perth city, your suggestions about where people ate closer to the city will come in very useful for the sequel I'm starting to mull over (which would see my characters in their mid-to-late teens and starting to wander further from home). I also really appreciated what you had to say about the kinds of junk/snack food vegetarians might eat, because that will colour not only what my character would eat on a trip out with friends, but also what she might serve for her birthday tea at her sleepover. 

Re: *waves from Perth*

[alias_sqbr]

Oh, cool, I actually lived around Freo back then myself, it was just that I went to UWA and all my uni friends were more Perth based.

My Freo-based friends weren't vegetarian, but there used to be a couple of food courts near the Freo Markets which we went to pretty regularly as teens and in the 2000s, and the Markets themselves had a lot of little food places. Both had Indian stalls but I have no idea how vegetarian friendly they were.

I don't remember Dome taking off in Freo until a bit later, but I might be misremembering. There was definitely a big Miss Maud's facing the strip. In general, as I recall it was a little less pretentious than it is now, with more Italian places, though a far cry from the pre-gentrification Freo I vaguely remember from the 80s.

[sporky_rat]

I remember the veg students in band trips in the late nineties got the veggie burger microwaved at Burger King, and really the only issue was they didn't always microwave it long enough from frozen.

[fred_mouse]

Another Perth person here, quite a bit older than your protagonist, wrong cultural background, vegetarian. alias_sqbr has posted quite a bit of detail about what the food options were. I'm trying to think what I was eating as a vegetarian teen, and coming up a bit blank. I'll try and come back to this later when I've had time to think about it.

[fred_mouse]

In the city, there were a number of cheap food halls, and almost always the stall with the vegetarian option was westernised Chinese or related cuisine. It was pretty much always cheaper to get a large and share it than it was to get two small serves -- the large came with rice and three dishes. Lot of students I knew split dishes that way. And it was usually a dollar cheaper to get a vegetarian large than a meat one. There might be more than one stall with vegetarian options, but if there was only one, it was stir fry veg (maybe with some kind of nuts), omelette filled with cabbage and onion, and hmm, failing to think what we always ended up with as the third.

Off Hay Street Mall there was an underground one at the west end which could be accessed from either the Mall or from William Street. It was pretty grotty, but cheap and might have been open more hours than some of the other ones, because I certainly remember going there more often. There was also the one in the bottom of the Carillion arcade. The other one we went to regularly was The Old Shanghai in Northbridge, although I think there was a wider range of food options there.

All probably more than you need, given you were talking about going to Hungry Jacks/equivalent as a small part of your question!

There were also a lot of yum cha places, which were a good option for cheap, because you could get just a couple of dishes. Trickier to be vegetarian, but when there was surprise meat it was alway pork or chicken, rather than beef. I used to frequently go in to the one in Northbridge near the corner of James and William Streets and get a bag of the sesame rice balls, which were either red bean or lotus seed filling, because that was very much a cheap way to get a vegetarian meal with protein in it (My guess at price for the early 2000's would be $3 for three). Vegetarian steam buns were available in a lot of places. I know that UWA sold steam buns for a while, but I don't know timing there.

There was also another entirely vegetarian restaurant in Northbridge, which I liked a lot more than Utopia, and I think it was still running by your time period. I believe it was called the Happy Buddha, and it was away from the busy parts of Northbridge, and did all you can eat options from a buffet. Lots and lots of faux-meat options.

[winterbird]

I'm just going to talk about food because that's the only part I really know about as someone who had a lot of Hindu Indian friends and also vegetarian friends as a teen and in my early 20s (around the time period you're talking):

- No vegetarian friend I had did fish & chips tbh unless they really had a specific chip craving. But because of the lack of options (no salads, no vegetarian proteins) it really was just a fancy chip shop for them, which just wasn't worth it.

- The Annalakshmi (though I went more before it moved near the Bell Tower, before Elizabeth Quay existed), especially back in the day. I had a friend who worked in the kitchens there. We lived on dhal.

I had vegetarian friends in the late 90s in Perth and frankly it was dead easy to accommodate them and easy to eat their food. My best friend at the time - I spent many days with her per week and here's what we regularly ate in the late 90s and early 00s:

- Vegetarian whoppers at Hungry Jacks (we don't have Burger King here, Hungry Jacks is the closest cognate). These have been around for so long and back in the day were *really good* - like easily as good as a whopper and not pretending to be one. The burger was a sweeter lentil patty that was really solid in flavour. I went from 'hmmm no' to 'actually yeah I'm in the mood for this sometimes.' Obviously chips etc. So junk food there was covered. I cannot stress how much we lived on these. For K in particular, the absolute top tier cheap junk food was veggie whoppers from HJ's, and I think we actually got them *at least* once a week.

The attitude towards McDonalds - which had zero attempts to please vegetarians - was fairly low among most vegetarians at the time. Friends had varying feelings about the chips being cooked in animal fat. Some were fine with it, others not.

- Our Indian Hindu friends had zero problems eating here btw. They were all teens-to-early-20s though, so the lack of adherence to strictness re: preparation could have been that they were teens lol.

- Vegetarian pizzas from Dominos (which used to be better quality than it is there), especially those that were loaded with extra toppings. This brought me around to veggie pizzas.

- Most tofu dishes (excluding Mapo etc.) and many Chinese venues in particular offered tofu alternatives. While veganism was extremely uncommon in this period of time, vegetarianism was common, and restaurants knew it was wise to offer tofu substitutes in many South East Asian places. I had the best tofu pad thai from a restaurant that no longer exists (Bliss on Beaufort Street, which is now Monggo - I previously had the chicken pad thai and the tofu was better).

- Substitute proteins were actually quite uncommon, you could not expect to find them when eating out. You had tofu, and you had mushrooms, and that was it for substitute proteins. I think later seitan also became more popular, but no one really knew what to do with it on the restaurant/cafe circuit.

- Vegetarian big breakfasts didn't exist on menus yet really, but they were easy to 'create' and many people would get a base meal like mushrooms on toast and then add sides like beans, hash browns etc.

- The hole-in-the-wall Hare Krishna restaurant was one of the best cheap feeds in Northbridge. I have no idea if they're still around, but I think it was around $10 for all you can eat.

- Annalakshmi was a gold coin donation, though it was the norm to pay around $10-20 (you could always tell newcomers who didn't know this). That being said, the Annalakshmi (which also used to hold Diwali festivals in the 90s and early 00s and was my first experience of Diwali) were truly understanding of very elderly people and teenagers only paying gold coin donations when they couldn't afford more. Whether your character went to the Annalakshmi or not, it was absolutely *iconic* as a central Perth vegetarian (ALL vegetarian, zero meat dishes on the premises) Hindu restaurant, and also very culturally central back in the day. Everyone knew about it, had heard of it, and most who were Hindu had been there at least once. Teens may/may not want to keep going there on their own because they might have been associating it with their parents and family, but we went all the time, and there was - from memory - zero shame in doing so. In fact I remember being really delighted to learn more about Hinduism this way (esp Diwali) and frankly the food was always absolutely goated.

It's still around, but it's not as good as it used to be (my favourite Annalakshmi era was its less fancy era when it was on Riverside Drive (I think) and before it rebuilt near the Bell Tower).

- Finally, a lot of friend get-togethers centred around vegetarian meals cooked at home, usually one pot meals. During this time I was introduced to carrot and ginger soup (still a fave), dhal from the family whose kid worked at the Annalakshmi, etc. It wasn't things like nut loafs and the vegetarian stuff most white people make, and so on, it was like... the kind of junky, cheese heavy food many teens (inc vegetarians) love. Cheese toasties and tomato soup, cheese and spinach packet ravioli, pasta with jar tomato sauce and a mountain of grated cheese - vegetarian comfort food - that was huge.

This is making me miss the food of my teenage years. I cook a lot of vegetarian meals these days solely because of the friends I hung out in high school and just after, and that influenced also where I went to eat the most. It actually *wasn't* Utopia, only because I had more Indian friends and so they were choosing to go to the Annalakshmi and the Hare Krishna place, oh and frankly we were poor and Utopia was EXPENSIVE. So I will say that the food choices your chara has will be influenced strongly by how affluent they are. We were all working for our own money, so the cheapest feeds were the best options (like a deal on pizzas, or a two-for-one whopper meal deal (which could be used for the vegetarian whopper)).

- I will say that a friend of mine who was a teenaged girl from India (immigrant parents) during that time was quite soft-spoken and well-mannered around her parents. To my knowledge, she had an arranged marriage but was also pretty fine with it. This still continues in many parts of Perth (one of my partners now works with people who are in arranged marriages all the time). But she wasn't soft-spoken and well-mannered around us, lol, people in their teens/early 20s are going to be rebelling generally no matter what in their friend groups. How she behaved around her parents was pretty radically different, and her I remember her father was extremely strict BUT that could have just been her family and not reflective of anything else, y'know?

[winterbird]

If it's winter, Hare Krishna in Northbridge and Annalakshmi would have had the best 'warming' foods. Hungry Jack's would have been a great default option.

For actual details (like Hare Krishna serving on metal trays etc.) feel free to hmu, I don't know how much detail you need.

I also want to add that outside of tofu dishes, many South East Asian places got kind of mad if you asked for substitutions outside of the tofu options already on the menu. I would say tofu substitutions in general was a very '.....we don't do that sorry.' Or you'd just get the Look.

But yeah I ate WELL among my vegetarian friends in Perth at the time (to the point that it has influenced the way I cook ever since, I still make dhal, I still make carrot and ginger soup, I still get veggie whoppers, I still get tofu pad thai (and mapo tofu which my veggie friends weren't having, I'm a tofu convert lmao), I still make vegetarian pasta, etc., it was just that what we ate well was almost always junk food, or Indian or South East Asian or Italian food, lol. I will add that you really couldn't expect to be catered for in 'white places' (many cafes or restaurants), or there would be like... sometimes one sad token meal. Or alternatively, we would just all have chips with sour cream and sweet chilli sauce and iced coffees which frankly are still some of my happiest memories. That happened at Moon Cafe, also in Northbridge (and still there!) Back in the day it played a lot of goth-industrial music, and also dance music, it was open late so it was a great place to crash in a booth and just chat with friends. Also pretty queer, though not to the point that people weren't just using it for cheap feeds.

Happy to answer more until you get someone more specifically suited to answering your questions! Back in the day, we were in a poor immigrant area and so most of my friends were POC and specifically Asian of some kind, and vegetarianism was actually pretty common. Shout out to the 1990s John Forrest crew, lol.

[lovecatcadillac]

I’m overwhelmed (delightfully so!) at how many pointers you’ve offered. I really appreciate it!

I love everything you’ve written about what you used to eat at the time, especially with friends. When it comes to writing food into the story, I’ve gone mainly from what I remember eating at that time, as well as references to food in contemporaneous books and food features in old girls’ magazines (e.g. “Here are the unhealthy options you eat, and some healthy alternatives!” “Everything I Eat in a Day: By A. Teenager”).

Your note on the differences in how your one friend would behave around her social group as opposed to her parents is also interesting to consider. My character is in the very early stages of teenage rebellion, and it’s more against her childhood friends than her parents – less “Let’s smoke ciggies behind the bike shed” and more “I would like to be friends with someone who smokes ciggies behind the bike shed because she seems pretty nice and takes me seriously. This is beginning to pose a challenge because my ultra-anxious childhood best friend goes into a horror-spiral at the notion of expanding our friend group.”
Writing someone with parents who are somewhere on the continuum of strict is an interesting challenge, because my parents were very hands-off (to the point of being a little bit neglectful). I was such a homebody and tended to only rebel in ways that adults didn’t pick up on, so I never got grounded. There was also no limit on what I read or watched, which was a great relief to me as I loved all kinds of books, TV and movies and would have pitched a fit if they hadn’t allowed me to read The Color Purple or The Virgin Suicides. My parents could definitely be strict about some things – I was not technically allowed to take the train up to the city to window-shop without an adult, and there wasn’t really an open discussion about when I would be allowed to do this. (The lack of an open discussion meant I just started sneaking up to the city after I turned fifteen and telling Mum I was in Freo, lol.) My mum was also very clear that she didn’t want me going to anti-war protests after September 11 2001. I think she was picturing fire hoses and police dogs, though I don’t know if that ever really happened at the anti-war protests in Perth.

All this is to say, I’d love to pick your brain about your experiences growing up in Perth – for my other characters as well as my Indian girl character. I’m very keen to broaden my perspectives about what growing up in Perth at the time was like, so that my characters feel distinct from each other. Would you mind if I messaged you down the line?

[winterbird]

I do ramble so I apologise for the overwhelm! :D

And yes feel free to message! I work as a writer myself, so thinking about the distinguishing traits of even just people in my own life is something that comes pretty naturally to me! :D I don't write YA though (even though it's an awesome like umbrella genre so many great tales).

our note on the differences in how your one friend would behave around her social group as opposed to her parents is also interesting to consider.

I suspect Z had an abusive father, which definitely influences things here. But even though she was soft-spoken (including at high school), she could be kind of wild in public. That being said, *none of us were drinkers* in any capacity. Including when we were in our early 20s. None of our social meets involved alcohol of any kind (I know this might not be relevant given the age of your chara, but I had family members drinking and taking drugs at 14 lol - so when I say Z was wild, I mean not really, she swore sometimes and debated heatedly with us and was basically just fun to be around).

In retrospect, this lack of drinking is probably pretty strange from the outside looking in. At the time, it was just incredibly normal because we always had things to do (wandering around Kings Park, going to the movies, going to food places, going to friend's houses for pool parties etc.), but it does mean I have no like... stories around operating in this way as a teenager. I knew a lot of other folks from my high school who were finding ways to drink and who *wanted* to drink. We were just...not that group, lol. We were queer and straight geeks basically.

Another place I forgot to mention was Fast Eddy's because most (all?) have closed down, but back around then it was a big deal to to have a late night place that offered like fried mushrooms and chips etc. though I do remember they were pricey, compared to other options. But yeah, I remember that being a good place to go when everywhere else was closed and we weren't in Northbridge!

[fred_mouse]

Pretty sure that all the Fast Eddy's are gone, but the Hare Krishna place is still there in Northbridge. I don't think they do the metal trays any more.

[alias_sqbr]

I had forgotten about how expensive Utopia was until you reminded me, I think my resentment of that was overwhelmed by my resentment about not being able to eat anything haha (especially since by 2001 I had a job so could afford not to care as much about cost). Looking back, you're right, it was more "get togethers amongst 20 something vegans", and less "drop in for a meal after a movie for vegetarian teens", even UWA students tended to be too poor to go there regularly. They just got very enthused about it when they did! And the vegans and vegetarians I knew tended to be either white or South East Asian which again influences things.

I meant to mention the Hare Krishnas and Anna Lakshmi but fell down a rabbit hole trying to figure out when and where they'd have been open and then forgot. In general I'm very glad you commented, sounds like your personal experiences are super relevant.

With fish and chips, there was one specific fish and chip place near UWA which would sell a single massive package of chips for a very low price given the size, so vegetarians would buy one as a group and share it then split the cost. I don't know how common that sort of deal is/was but I think the OP could plausibly invent a convenient fish and chip place with a good deal on chips as required.

It's funny you say veganism was very uncommon since you're probably right yet I knew SO MANY VEGANS, I think I knew more vegans than vegetarians. But uni students are not representative of wider culture, and there were a couple of VERY outspoken and influential vegans in my social circle who influenced the numbers and my perception.

[winterbird]

Yeah I wonder how much the veganism thing was also influenced by like... *thinks* potential circles re: affluence etc. and also area? Idk, but veganism wasn't something that was easy to do on poor immigrant budgets (which is my experience re: my parents and the people's parents around me) unless the entire family agreed to do it, so what was happening around the UWA direction for example seemed extremely like...lofty/indulgent to us (but also we didn't really know anyone who went there. For almost all of us in the social group I'm referring to, I think I was the only one - or maybe one of two - to go to university, and we were the first in our respective families to ever attend a university).

(As an example, ECU Mt Lawley had zero vegan options as a campus, and also no vegan options just about in any of the eateries nearby. I think even if we'd gone to the nearest shopping centre (the Galleria) we'd have still really struggled?

That doesn't mean vegans weren't around at ECU at the time! They just weren't speaking up or affecting how we were eating in university friend groups (tbh most of the vegetarians I knew were in high school, any friends I made at uni actually were all just straight up omnivores).

I didn't have vegan friends at the time re: university or high school. People were either vegetarian because it was cultural and the whole family was doing it, or... actually that was the only reason. Also it's cheap to eat vegetarian, and it was especially so back then when so many people were growing stuff practically in their back garden/s. We had access to quite a bit of free home-grown food in exchange for Mum ironing for people, or cleaning their houses, the barter system was very alive and well in at least our little pocket of Embleton back in the day. Even a lot of what Mum made at home was vegetarian, or 'vegetarian with an extremely sparing amount of meat added.'

It wasn't until I was an adult going through her recipe book that I realised she stretched a bolognese sauce by grating tons of carrots in, because carrots cooked down create a 'mince-like' texture. And that was solely because meat was a lot of money. And I remember her 'yucky brown soup' (literally what we called it, she insists we loved it AND YET THAT'S WHAT WE'VE ALWAYS CALLED IT) and that was literally just clear vegetable (and faintly meaty) broth with a monster amount of vegetables cooked down with what in retrospect was an amount of meat that equalled about two leathery bites per bowl sadlfkjdsa And our favourite 'treat' dinner - crepes with lemon and sugar was like... flour, eggs, milk, sugar, and lemon, and two of those ingredients were free/in the neighbourhood re: barter.

It wasn't until my late 20s, I think, that I started meeting people who were becoming vegetarian or vegan solely due to lifestyle choices, and not because of like...religion or 'the entire family did it so I did it too and now I'm just used to it' (which was K and her siblings).

Donut King in the Galleria was also huge at least in our friendship groups because the iced coffee/s etc. always came with two free hot cinnamon donuts. I don't think they do that anymore T.T

And yeah that giant chip deal at the place near UWA sounds amazing! Honestly large chips + sweet chilli sauce + sour cream got us by many cafe attendances where we were pooling our money together and looking for the cheapest + most filling thing in the menu. It's funny in retrospect how much that kind of ruled our decisions. I can't imagine how like...say having an immigrant family making a decent income would change the landscape but it would!!

(Annalakshmi opened at the Bell Tower around 2000, I know it took longer than they expected because K's brother was frustrated he couldn't get back to work there in the kitchens. Hare Krishna I don't actually remember much about, we just kind of went in there like little famished creatures and ate as much as we could among the monks and then went out again to be little full creatures instead. We were more likely to go to Moon Cafe for v i b e s salfjkdsa - also they used to have that awesome cheap pasta night deal)

[alias_sqbr]

Hmm! This is a bit of a tangent but your comment got me thinking about the culture/class background of vegetarians I know.

Apologies to lovecatcadillac, feel free to ignore this comment it has very little to do with your actual question.

A fully balanced vegan lifestyle is hard on a low budget without specialist stores but from what I saw, asides from special occasions when they had gatherings at Fancy Vegetarian Restaurants (and regularly going to fancy restaurants is for a sure a class marker, but not all the vegetarians actually did that), vegan and vegetarian uni students usually just lived off, like... chips and cheeseless pizza and 2 minute noodles with Woolies tofu etc, with maybe some home made dahl when they could be bothered. As you say, a vegetarian diet can be very cheap. These people lived away from their parents and probably would have been eating weird shitty student food regardless.

And for school students who lived with their parents, I honestly feel like the working class kids I knew from primary school had more freedom about food than the upper middle class ones I knew from highschool. Like, the working class parents I knew were for sure pretty conventional and resistant to Unusual Choices, but they could usually be badgered into acceptance if the kid was determined. Meanwhile the richer parents were by comparison VERY controlling and conventional, they could AFFORD to make separate meals but that doesn't mean they would be WILLING. I knew a kid from primary school who went vegetarian in the 80s, which we all thought was odd but not incomprehensible, and two of my (complicated class wise but not super well off) siblings went vegetarian as children and my parents thought it was annoying but begrudgingly went along with it. I have a friend from uni who was surviving off charity food boxes during her childhood who still went vegetarian the first chance she got. But I don't remember encountering any vegetarians at my fancy private highschool, closest was a few Jews and Muslims who were raised that way. By the 2000s vegetarianism was I think a little more mainstream but in the 90s it was still seen as pretty weird.

Also I feel like I knew some hippie vegetarian families in my parents fine arts student circles in 80s Fremantle, but that's again kind of weird class/culture wise.

Even more of a tangent: There for sure are some major class differences between UWA and the other unis, though unlike private vs state highschools it's not as clearcut a cost difference and there's a lot of variety. I've always felt complicated about the fact I did fit in better at UWA than I think I would have at other unis, versus feeling equally out of place at primary and highschool. Like... I chose UWA because it had more space for the pursuit of abstract theoretical maths/physics with no immediate practical use, and in some ways that sort of thing is for sure associated with the idle rich, but also in practice most actual rich people want themselves and their children to study things which will actually make money, and will often cut kids off financially if they refuse to play along. I guess it's more of that complicated and often precarious class/cultural space for artsy/academic/bohemian types, who aren't making much money at their passion but also need to get money and training from somewhere. I've ended up with some very confused feelings on all this by being raised in a family of neuroatypical artsy-leaning socialists whose actual income varied between "poor-ish" and "comfortable" depending on generation and era, and went on a lot about working class solidarity and the incomprehensible evils of the rich while being equally ill at ease and socially awkward around both. The poor people I knew growing up saw us as snooty self indulgent weirdos but the rich people I met later didn't like us any better, so I guess I have a bit of a knee-jerk sympathy for vegetarians being seen as similarly self indulgent. But you're not wrong about there genuinely being some class related differences involved. Also I didn't really meet many middle middle class people until I got older which affects my perspective. So, hmm! You got me thinking!

EDIT: Context I realise doesn't go without saying is that moonvoice is a professional artist with a humanities degree, we both have different complicated relationships to academia, art, and class (and then there's disability...)