Question about horses

[alnaperera]

I am writing a sort of fantasy adventure thing and it involves horses. I have no experience with them whatsoever, so I have a few questions.
1) would a horse be okay with a trip that's ~15km, roughly 100m drop but with minor ups and downs and a pretty low grade throughout (say a maximum of ten degrees for very short stretches, sustained is more like one degree)? How long will this take? What about the return trip?
2) how would they react to this being at 2 in the morning? One horse is the rider's best friend pretty much, the other horse has never met the rider before but assume it's a nice horse. The second rider is also very experienced, just not with this horse.
3) how will the react to a bicycle being a part of the party?

Editing to add a bit more context.
The party consists of the following:
1. Horse A and character A, both used to each other (in town, around town, exploring hills, committing crime together).
2. Horse B and character B. Horse B is my biggest variable because they will appear for just this trip, that's it. Generally used for riding around farms and getting to nearby cities and stuff, I don't imagine this horse being one of those big farm horses. Character B is from a culture that is very horse based and has been riding since she feasibly could, mostly training with war horses.
3. Character C and bicycle. Character C has no riding experience whatsoever and needs to arrive at the destination in reasonable shape, hence the bicycle.
The trip happens early in the morning what would be the rough equivalent of northern hemisphere early March, temperatures would be in low single digits C and warming up slowly to low double digits.
The roads are reasonably well lit for established cultural reasons.
Character A and Character B can both see in the dark much better than the average person.
They also need to start the return trip almost immediately afterwards, though they can reasonably get some rest about 2 kilometers in.

Comments

[jenett]

It's going to depend a bit on some other aspects - what's the footing like? Uncertain footing (gravel, small rocks, branches over the path, etc. is all going to slow things down a lot.) What's the lighting like? Full moon and not much shade on the path is a lot difference than new moon or lots of trees at 2am.

15km is about 9 miles: a horse walks at about 4 miles an hour on the flat (slower if there's much incline). If they can trot or canter for stretches, the trot gets up to about 12 miles an hour for moderate amounts, canter is more like 16, but for shorter distances. (And neither will do well with incline or decline or less great footing.) Given the night part, you're probably looking at walking the entire way, though.

If the second horse is used to having different riders, *but* used to doing things with the first horse, having the first horse and rider go first might help a lot. (Horses are herd animals, having a trusted source in the front helps.) How the horses react to a bicycle depends a lot on their previous experience, if the bike produces unusual sounds, etc. It might be better to have the bike go first, so that it's not weird noises behind them.

You might want to look at endurance trail rides to get an idea of speed, scope, etc. and what's involved in doing that.

(Former Horse Girl, not up on all the details at this point.)

[genarti]

I would agree with all of this!

I would also generally add that horses are very individual, and so a lot will depend on each one's personality and what they're used to. Which means you can get a certain amount of mileage out of "thankfully, X was a very calm horse" or "thankfully, X seemed to be used to bicycles; she swiveled her ears warily but did not freak out as Y had feared she might" or whatever if you want them to be relatively chill about the time and the bike.

[alnaperera]

That's a good point!

[alnaperera]

Thank you!
The road condition should be good and well lit (mostly used by horses, buses, sheep, and a very occasional car). The second horse would be used to the same set of different riders more or less, and the horses would know each other well. They should be used to the bike (though not taking a trip with them) so I'll probably have to figure that one out (can't put character 3 on a horse because it's established they have zero riding experience).

[sporky_rat]

Horses do not see in the dark, you will need lighting of some sort, and some horses just won't do night rides at all.

[alnaperera]

The road should be fairly well lit (at least enough to see where they're going quite well), so this may not be a problem?

[sporky_rat]

If this is a city, maybe, rural, why would you waste fuel on lighting a road nobody would be using until dawn or just before?

[alnaperera]

Established cultural (and sort of practical) reasons.

[azurelunatic]

Some horses are more skittish than others; this also goes by breeding, so some types of horses are generally more skittish than others. Generally, horses bred to Go Fast OMG are more likely to Behave Badly at things that startle them, and horses bred for things like draft (pulling things behind them with more power than speed) or specialty breeds like IRL Icelandic horses, are much steadier (you will hear some of these individuals described as "bomb proof"). Riding horses could fall into either category.

The second horse might spook at unexpected noises that it might be fine with if it could see things better, particularly if it's high-strung.

The rider of the second horse is going to have to spend a little while on the trip learning their mount, and (possibly) guiding it out of Bad Habits. Which could be (for a high strung horse) shying at things, or for a super laid back horse, trying to pause to munch on convenient things.

[azurelunatic]

Also, the rider's level of experience in general is going to make a difference. It'll be best for the outcome if they're used to riding a variety of horses.

Where does the second horse come from? If it's from, say, the household stable of someone with a lot of money and a lot of horses, it could be not only nice but beautifully behaved. If it's from a high end livery stable (rent-a-horse), it could be similar. If it's from a low-end livery stable, it may have some flaws that could have seen it sold off from a better place. And those flaws could be bad stable manners such as cribbing (swallowing air, which causes digestive problems because horses can't burp), inhaling and holding its breath when saddled so the saddle band fits more loosely and could cause an inattentive rider to fall off at a crucial point (very common), a tendency to lameness from an old injury, or even an unfashionable color and/or pattern. (People tend to snicker if your horse has a nose marking in the shape of a rude drawing.)

[alnaperera]

Both horses belong to a fairly well off family who do a lot of farming. It's in a rural area where there aren't many cars (it's not a very common thing in the setting) so roads aren't built for them. I would say it's a horse that transports its humans a lot.
Both riders would be used to a variety of horses.

[spark]

I am not very horsey although I have some riding experience, but I am a farmer in a very rural area. If the scenario is that three people need to make an urgent journey and the transport available is horses plus a bike, and one of the people has no riding experience, then I would think it more likely that they would take three horses and just have the horse for the inexperienced person on a leading rein. Especially if the journey is likely to be at horse walking pace, not requiring gaits that are harder for an inexperienced person. A combined horse/bicycle group is going to be much more inherently awkward for reasons others have discussed.

Of course if you want it to be the bicycle for plot reasons there's no reason you shouldn't, but personally I find three horses more likely.

Also, I would be surprised that the roads are lit in a rural area without many cars, they are not lit where I live aside from the bits where they pass through villages. But again perhaps your worldbuilding accounts for that :)

[winterbird]

Seconding this! Like literally to the point where if a bicycle was needed for plot reasons, it's almost better to have a collapsible one that's on a calm/steady/seen-everything horse's back like a second rider, wrapped in fabric/textiles to cushion it.

Bike + horse is awkward as hell, bike 'carried by horse' is actually way more understandable, especially if they're draft horses or cold-blooded / warm-blooded horses that are used to other forms of work as well!

(Also seconding that farm roads aren't generally lit at all in rural areas here either, that's extremely unusual. Even in times where horse was the *only* method of travel outside of like...walking, roads were even less likely to be lit in rural areas).

[sunshine304]

Agree with the awkwardness of a mixed group of horses and bicycle. A horse isn't that fast when just walking, at least not for someone on a bike comfortably driving next to it. When my family had horses, I used to take my horse out into the fields on a lead while I drove my bicycle. When she walked, I also walked and pushed the bike along. I only sat on the bike when she trotted or cantered, otherwise it just didn't work.

But as mentioned, you could take a bike along if one character really isn't able to stay on a horse at all. If the horses are used to carry things, it wouldn't be too difficult to strap a foldable bike to a horse's back.

[azurelunatic]

So Horse B is going to be a comfortable riding horse who may or may not have draft training. Since Character B is used to war horses, this is the equivalent of going from a manual transmission racecar or maybe a Saab to an automatic transmission minivan. The horse will be slower, calmer, less likely to react angrily to a snapping stick, less likely to kick a stranger, not as maneuverable unless one of the farm teenagers with ambitions has been teaching it dressage-type moves for fun, potentially not as responsive to subtle commands. (Some horses are trained to respond to knee commands to turn as well as rein commands, more likely in a war horse where the rider will need their hands for weapons.)

If this is Character A's family's farm, Character A will likely assist Character B in introducing themselves to Horse B, and will probably make sure that Character B has a good stock of Horse B's favorite treats, and will tell Character B how Horse B likes to be touched. So Character B and Horse B should get off to a good start together. And Character A will have likely picked the most suitable horse for the situation -- one who is good with night rides on these roads, one who accepts strange riders, one without any unacceptable tricks, and one who won't have to be worked the next day.

Character B will be on the lookout for all kinds of annoying tricks that a tempermental war horse might do, but this horse is most likely to offer only the old saddle band trick (which Character B will automatically be on the lookout for, and might not even notice that they're looking out for it, because it's such a very very common horse trick).

[adafrog]

Sounds like a fairly easy trail ride. I agree with checking the endurance sites.
2- the time depends on the horse. Some would be frelling grumpy to be messed with like that, but if it happened often, then not so much.
Two horses and two riders? If they're tolerant horses and adequate riders, then that should be okay, considering they had the right tack.
3-if they've experienced it before, then no problem. However, a bike rider can go much faster than a horse at a walk. So either the biker is going slow, or the horses trot sometimes.

I am a dressage rider with my own horses. I only trail ride occasionally.

[winterbird]

Imho, if they are cold-blooded or warm-blooded horses it makes more sense for one of the horses to carry a collapsible bike - if it's absolutely central to the plot and they can't get that bike anywhere else or need it for sentimental reasons.

The gait difference re: horses + human-on-bike are such that this just becomes so much more awkward than if you have a completely inexperienced rider on an experienced horse, following behind another experienced horse/rider. (Horses are trained like this all the time, especially if they're going to be getting used to pulling carriages / traveling with other horses).

Unless the bicycle is alive and another character (which it sounds like from part 3?) in which case the bike can look after itself lol.

The reason many towns in the US and the UK tend to historically be around 20-30 miles apart is because this was a pace a horse could comfortably do in a day (if trained to it, fit, and on well-graded roads) give or take, at a low speed.

Horses can easily do 15km when trained to it, horse marathons are a thing today, where such distances are considered very reasonable with moderate training (as much for the rider as the horse). This is where the experience of the riders will matter a lot. Horses are designed to graze very large territories in herds, and while they can be stationary, they can travel for days if need be to find lush meadows/pastures/grazing.

People, on the other hand, are not really built to have their legs spread apart while being jostled up and down all day, and it can lead to pretty serious (literally agonising) joint pain. When inexperienced, riders also aren't trained to know how to post or move with the horse at different gaits, which makes things harder for the horse *and* the rider (a rider also won't know if the saddle is fitting well, how to adjust the girth if necessary, how to hold their legs/feet in a way that "talks" to the horse while their legs/feet don't fatigue (it's not immediately intuitive for many).

There are different levels to 'experienced rider.' Are these folks regularly taking all-day walking/trotting trips with their horses to go to the neighbouring town? Or are they just used to going short distances to neighbouring farms? If the latter, their muscles will fatigue faster than the horses likely will (unless the horses have never been asked to take a day trip before - many horses today, including extremely experienced horses and their riders, have never been trained to do this because marathons just aren't as common now as things like dressage / event jumping and so on. The closest we get is trail rides, which are rarely an entire day - there are experienced riders who don't know what it feels like to be on a horse that's moving all day with only very short breaks, and experienced horses that don't know what this is like too, so 'Experienced' in your definition is going to vary HUGELY. If you want to make it easy on yourself, just make them horses that have either been a) trained to regularly move visitors from the rural area to the town and vice versa and who then ended up in the care of these characters, or b) dedicated to more long-distance travel, it is reasonable to expect that towns with horses have towns specifically trained for this, including rural areas - trade is important, you need ways to do it. But be aware that many of these horses are often cold/warm-bloods (i.e. the thicker, heavyset horses built more for endurance than speed))

And yes, a horse could do a return trip, but it would need decent rest / feed first. You would not be doing this to them every day.

Many horses - including those trained for this - won't do this kind of trip at night, *especially* if there's rain (depth perception is an issue with horses so many spook at water because they don't know how deep it is, this is often worse at night even with horses that can navigate water during the day).

I don't know why the trip has to be at 2am instead of say, 4am when you could feasibly make it dawn in a place closer to the polar circles, or if there's urgency and therefore the horses can't be walking. As you can tell, there is a TON of variables to consider!! :D Additionally, what are they bringing along as feed? Grass is often not going to cut it. Foods like horsebread exist for a reason,

(Experience: Have ridden, trained in Natural Horsemanship, and have done many dedicated hours of research specifically into horses as transport for my own writing, which led me into an interest in horse marathons, which I highly recommend you look further into!)

Overall 15 kmh should be more than possible with horses used/trained to these distances already, and riders who are too. Riders not trained to those distances will fail faster than horses *and* make the horse's life difficult through not knowing how to move with a horse (they don't have to *know* the horse, but they *do* need muscle memory / control). Night is going to be a big issue esp given weather. Rural areas are not generally lit and not's not realistic to make them lit without a good worldbuilding reason, even areas that *only* used horses for transport back in the day were not lighting their streets. They were either not traveling at night OR they were often *whipping* a very well-trained horse and forcing them to do it (breaking in a horse was a very different journey compared to what we have today which led to both some truly bombproof horses, and horses that were like 'fuck off' except to very specific things and people lol). (And while it happens frequently in fiction, this was not a thing people were wasting horses on potentially otherwise, they are *worth too much.* So if you're writing a 'characters escaping in the dead of night' scene, if they care about the welfare of extremely valuable animals and you haven't given them a reason to have the horses used to travelling at night (which can be resolved with some dialogue), this is just not something someone would do to horses they cared for. It's not only something horses don't like doing, it's potentially fatally dangerous to both humans and the horses - the lack of depth perception + solid night vision is a BIG issue!!!)

[sunshine304]

This is a very good comment and I second pretty much all of it. XD

Some additional info from my personal experience: We used to have two horses that were moderately trained: dressage, jumping, lots of riding out into the fields for one or two hours per round. They got exercise almost every day and knew us very well.

The longest trip I did with my horse was a round trip where we visited someone several villages over and then rode back in a curve. That was something between 10 - 12 km. We did that in somewhere between 3 to 4 hours, lots of walk, but several instances of trot or canter as well, if the path was nice.

Our horses liked to trot or even canter light slopes uphill, it was good training for them. Trotting or cantering downhill is more dangerous and hard on the horses forelegs so it shouldn't be done for too long. If the road was quite steep downhill, we sometimes even dismounted and lead them for a bit as it was easier for the horses to balance only their weight. So for your story you should likely establish that the horses are well trained, quite calm and collected and not too easily spooked. Some horses are more sure-footed than others (mine was great at it, the one I'm currently riding is as well - but one horse I rode a few years ago tended to stumble over his own feet a lot... not a good trail horse!).

Horses + the dark: It's possible, especially if there's lots of trust and at least some light because of a bright moon or similar. But most horses won't like it. We usually never rode in the dark, because the horses spooked far more easily and we ourselves couldn't see that well either... Once, I completely misjudged how early the sun set in November *coughs* and was still at a training session in a different village. I rode home while it was getting dark and halfway home the sun had set and I was still out in the fields. My horse tended to spook a lot, she was quite high-strung. But surprisingly, she behaved exceptionally well, didn't spook once, was alert but not nervous, and we got home without any problems. But that was her quite special character - many other horses would have reacted differently, especially without other horses.

[full_metal_ox]

People, on the other hand, are not really built to have their legs spread apart while being jostled up and down all day, and it can lead to pretty serious (literally agonising) joint pain. When inexperienced, riders also aren't trained to know how to post or move with the horse at different gaits, which makes things harder for the horse *and* the rider (a rider also won't know if the saddle is fitting well, how to adjust the girth if necessary, how to hold their legs/feet in a way that "talks" to the horse while their legs/feet don't fatigue (it's not immediately intuitive for many).

Don’t forget the possibility of crotch chafing! (Source: a non-Horse Girl who, in coarse 70’s polyester trousers, rode one anyway at Scout camp.)

[antimonyschnuck]

I have no useful input but reading through the comments I feel the urgent need to tell all the horse girls that you can't just put a non-rider on a horse and tag it along on a rope.
I'm a non-rider and I once sat on a horse and it was horrible. I didn't have the thigh strength to clamp down long. Then the horse lowered its head to eat grass and I thought I was going to die. It never took even one step and it was simply hell.
Please put me on that bike.