Gun shot advice

[elisheva_m]

The big melodramatic action climax of the lakorn I'm writing involves a gun fight (tropey genres x 2, realism is a bonus). Key characters escape, but it's too much to ask that it's unscathed or that they all only have grazes.

What's a good location for a gun shot wound which, let's say, requires stitches but can plausibly be expected to heal without complications? Arm or leg as they had the magical protection of body armour and being main characters. They've made it to a safe location with supplies prepared in advance and with the expectation of bullet wounds. One in particular has been around violence for over a decade and has experience.

I have a good enough idea on graze wounds for my needs - these really are "little details" in the lakorn and I'm just trying to calm the melodrama a bit with something heading in the vague direction of realism :D :D  It's been harder to figure out a wound which conveys "serious" (ie stitches as an emotional stand-in for surgery) but won't be difficult to treat for someone with good supplies and experience.

So rather than asking if this or that might work for you all to tell me it won't, I figured i'd just ask for suggestions on the location(s) from the start :D :D

TIA and thanks for replies to my earlier question.

Comments

[tiggymalvern]

If it needs to be more than a graze but not hospital-serious, you'll want to have them shot through a muscle where there's a believable chance the bullet won't hit any bones or major blood vessels or nerves. Calf muscle (gastrocnemius) would be good for that, if the bullet goes straight through from side to side. If your characters are built like bodybuilders, you could do the same with an arm, but it's harder with arms because the bones there run through the middle of all the muscle groups, unlike the lower leg, where the calf muscle sticks out behind the bone.

[full_metal_ox]

Buttocks (in a crosswise direction, so as not to endanger the spine or pelvic contents)—all the better for fanservice and innuendo?

[tiggymalvern]

That would work too :-)

[elisheva_m]

She's strong and in good shape, but wiry not a body builder type so that rules out an arm for her.

She needs to be able to walk though and I'm guessing the calf would cause mobility problems. Her brother-in-law is very thorough, so I suppose he could have made sure to include crutches :D :D

(Also, does this mean the classic shot in the shoulder trope is implausible given the number of bones there? The magic of telly kevlar ruled it out for me but now I'm curious. TY)

[full_metal_ox]

Let’s see—a protective vest would rule out a lateral breast injury, I’m guessing? If she even has enough breast tissue to be safely clear of the rib cage (which, with a “wiry” build, might not be the case?)

[elisheva_m]

Thanks, but an injury to her breast doesn't work for what I'm doing with this.

[full_metal_ox]

Fair enough. (Not specifically singling out naughty bits, just trying to think of areas of flesh that would neither contain vital organs nor permanently disable.)

[elisheva_m]

One of the themes is women's sexual agency and autonomy. I truly cannot shoot my FL in her breast.

Draft currently has it in her calf. That 95% works so I just need to get it the other 5%.

[full_metal_ox]

Absolutely understood! (Disclosure: I’m not even remotely lakorn-savvy—in fact, it was you who introduced me to the word.)

[elisheva_m]

Since you've replied here, I should probably mention that lakorns aren't savvy re women's sexual agency. It's heavily constrained, especially for FLs. My story comes from observing some lakorns grapple with how to allow/depict some measure (still constrained) of sexual agency and desire for their FL or 2FL in a culture which is comfortable with that for men, not women. That's how I ended up writing well outside my comfort zone, to situate my FL outside social norms. (That men with men can be shown more explicitly is rooted in the country's sexism and patriarchy.)

For all that, many lakorns have great women characters. They're a lot of fun too. Tropey melodramas which race over every plot hole to get back to the emotions, which are always the real story. To Sir With Love (Eng subs on one31's youtube) is an excellent one to start with if you're interested.

[tiggymalvern]

I can't tell you how much I HATE the shot in the shoulder trope. The top part of your shoulder is where all the bones are. Just beneath them, all the nerves and blood vessels that supply your arm run through your armpit. The shoulder is one of the least benign not obviously a risk of fatality on first impact places (ie other than chest and abdomen) you can get shot. Get shot there, and you might not ever regain full use of your arm.

The calf muscle would hurt, but it's not broken, so she'll be able to walk with crutches or just a bit of assistance. If she needs to run, that makes it trickier.

[elisheva_m]

Ok, thanks. She won't need to run. Their escape is more unusual :D

Of course of course re the shoulder. Eek. Before this I'd only thought of it in the terms it's conventionally presented, a telly trope to signal that it was a near miss but the character will survive. These sorts of scenes are ones I just get through when watching and I haven't given much bandwidth to the details. Thank you for your help, it's appreciated.

[topaz_eyes]

I think it's important to keep in mind that the overall accuracy of hitting moving targets in a gunfight is kind of low, even for trained professionals: one study looking at one police force suggests the accuracy is no more than 50%. https://daiglelawgroup.com/new-study-on-shooting-accuracy-how-does-your-agency-stack-up/

The likelihood of purposely hitting smaller moving targets (head, arms, legs) is much lower than hitting the biggest mass of the body, ie the torso (shoulders/chest/abdomen/back/pelvis/buttocks). That said, moving targets allow lots of room for grazing and hitting arms or legs, which is what you want.

You probably do not want a bullet to hit the brachial artery in the upper arm, and/or (especially!) the femoral artery in the thigh. Your characters will bleed out very fast from either of those wounds, within 2-5 minutes, without immediate treatment to stop the bleeding. Followup treatment would require a hospital to repair the artery. So the calf is likely the safest for minimal damage--or possibly the buttocks, if a character turns to run.

[elisheva_m]

So maybe just a few injuries is more realistic than I realised then? No, definitely no arteries :D

How about mobility with a calf or buttocks wound? Do I have to supply them with crutches?

[pallas_rose]

Hi, friendly neighbourhood trauma surgeon here! People shot in the limbs often have neither fractures nor vascular compromise--even in the arms--as long as the caliber of the weapon is small. We don't even sew up the wounds, just allow them to close up on their own; gauze dressings changed once or twice a day till then. Make sure they get a tetanus vaccine!

[full_metal_ox]

How about the buttock injury a couple people have suggested?

(I, at least, have missed you! How’ve you been doing? Last year you mentioned undertaking a major move, amidst all the ambient baseline crap hitting the fan.)

[pallas_rose]

Hi hi sorry for delay!

Buttock would work fine, as long as tangential and just thru the muscle, and not entering the pelvis. Otherwise we are looking at a colostomy and that simply isn't sexy.

Calf works but the major arteries have split into three arteries down there, plus two bones and less muscle mass. A good lateral thigh shot, missing the medially placed superficial femoral artery and the middle-ish femur, would be my recommendation :)

[elisheva_m]

Ok, thanks Pallas Rose. I'll move it from calf to thigh then. Appreciate your help.

[pallas_rose]

And to your question--I am well! The major move is over and the new job a different level of intellectual engagement. The other trouble is that I am currently doing a few months in an austere environment so I'm away from home and internet and routines. Hopefully back to normal in the coming months!

[elisheva_m]

It would just be a hand gun, so that's small caliber, yes?

I know this doesn't apply to your work, where there's a good chance your patients will be sensible and take it easy, but my characters need to be somewhat active to finish rescuing themselves. Stitches the next morning works much better for the plot and it would be in character/situation if she aggravates it. So maybe dressings first and then stitches? She's stubborn, she's going to do as much as circumstances allow her and probably somewhat more. This would give me more plausible leeway before I need to reign her in, which lets me keep the story moving at a crucial time.

Thanks for sharing your expertise. I appreciate it.

[tiggymalvern]

Not all handguns are small calibre - maybe avoid a Desert Eagle!

There's a big difference between a .22 and a .45. The most common handguns people carry are .38 or 9mm, so somewhere in the middle. Distance makes a big difference too - the further away your target is from the shooter, the better the chance of an annoying but not dangerous injury.

[elisheva_m]

Definitely at a distance. I don't know anywhere near enough about guns or gun fights to write that scene in detail. It very much works within Thai lakorn to let that be noise and commotion and then ground it back within the reality of the emotions in the following scenes. The injuries are part of stepping that down from melodrama climactic action into what comes next, so I'd like to give them some plausible realism.

[lilacsigil]

Another option might be that the more serious injury you want comes from the environment rather than directly from a bullet. Broken glass can give you some nasty and deep cuts that absolutely need stitching, and shooting often results in broken glass. The character could be hit by some or fall onto some.

[elisheva_m]

Oh, I hadn't thought of something like that. (I am so out of my comfort zone with aspects of this lakorn.) Thank you :) :) :)

They're outside and in an open area, so broken glass is ruled out and there are limited options but maybe I can think of something. Will let it percolate awhile.

[arctowardthesun]

Outside and in an open area would provide plenty of opportunity to fall onto broken glass, either in being shot or in avoiding getting shot?

[elisheva_m]

The most glass that's plausible in this location is an old broken beer bottle.
I'm being cautious as to how much information I share here because I might (hopefully) be seeking beta readers from DW at some point and their not knowing will be more useful to me for insight on dramatic flow, how well things have been foreshadowed etc than this small part.

[full_metal_ox]

“Outside and in an open area” is fairly broad territory; are we talking an urban setting, where she might bang into a railing or sharp sculpture? A natural setting, perhaps with stones, thorns, or old wooden fences?

[elisheva_m]

Yes, I've been being vague about the exact location in case this gets to the point where I might ask for beta readers on DW.
As much as I like lilacsigal's suggestion, trying to implement it in this particular setting bogs the action down with words and creates a new moment of implausibility. The gunfight and what happens immediately after are high melodrama, so they need to be more emotion than explanation.

Pallas_rose's reply about stitches being rare for gunshot wounds got me headed down another path, which is in keeping with character, where they are in the plot and lakorn as a genre. Bandaging it up that night with the expectation that this will be enough, except she doesn't sleep because [spoilers :D ] and aggravates it is more than plausible. It is 100% what she would do, and will continue to do, so it's a much better fit than trying to explain in a sharp object which shouldn't be in the setting and how she managed to fall/interact with it in a way which gave her a serious wound.

This grounds it in the characters and their emotions quickly, which is how good lakorns manage their melodrama. The draft currently does have stitches to help keep some of the intensity as I step it down into more regular life. Is it what a doctor would have done? Possibly not. But these characters, it fits :D

[azurelunatic]

I was lucky enough to have a stupid kitchen accident with a steak knife where it went in at a very slanted angle along the outside of my arm, mostly hitting fat and just nicking a muscle. I got the wound numbed, flushed with saline, two stitches, and a large hospital bill. (The circumstances were funny enough that I dressed up as that injury some years later for Halloween.) I could (not a doctor, not an anatomist) see that happening either in a buttock or in the belly fat that many women, even fit ones, often have.