help with Venetian dialect

[dinogrrl]

Hello wonderful people!

I've got a fantasy story that's set in early 18th-century Venice. I don't speak Italian, and definitely don't know the difference between the various regional dialects, so I'm looking for some help with a nickname in Venetian.

I have a priest who can use magic, who is not exactly a nice guy. Nobody likes to be around him, he's the kind of person you can just tell will erupt like a magic-spewing volcano the moment something doesn't go his way. My main character is ten when she first meets him and has a very visceral Do Not Like reaction to him, comparing him to a pack of rabid dogs. She is not told his name at the time, so in her mind she dubs him Father Mad Dog (creative, I know).

Several years ago I tried to parse "Father Mad Dog" into Italian/Venetian, and I don't know where I came to the conclusion that it'd be "Don Can' Pazzo" but that's what I've been using. I guess somewhere along the line I was under the impression that cane would get shortened to can when used like this. Is any of this correct? Or do I need another phrase entirely?

Comments

[winterbird]

Hello! Asked my Italian friend of over 10 years who lives in Padua (like a 20 minute drive from Venice, literally, and works in the library system there / is interested in language / fluent in English to explain all of this to me), and this is what she said (this is transcribed from a chat with her permission, she's not on DW). A part of the issue is that 'can' pazzo' with the way it rolls off the tongue will be mistaken as canpazzo, meaning 'bad field.':

Silvia -> "Also the Dreamwidth question is a bit tricky, don can pazzo isn't necessarily wrong but sounds a tiny bit odd. It doesn't sound very Venetian because it's too 'neat.' Venetian tends to shorten words and put accents where there aren't any. Also mad dog in Italian is cane rabbioso, because mad dog is like, a dog with rabies, like an angry dog.

Cane pazzo means more like crAzy dog - like omg what will he do next, hes craaaAaaAzy.

Mad has a difference nuance to me, like you can say someone is mad and mean they are either insane or angry. In Italian mad is either pazzo or rabbioso/arrabbiato, and in a dog's case you use rabbioso because it's a turn of phrase. So don cane pazzo is not wrong (I'd drop can and keep cane if she goes with pazzo, meaning insane), ma if she wants literally "mad dog", then it's "don can/e rabbioso" (can drop the e here because reading it makes it clear its two different words)

If someone called someone else can pazzo, the other person might understand/interpret it as canpazzo, and that sounds like idk, a bad "field."

If they want to keep the connection to mad dog then that's just don cane rabbioso, but that's a mouthful. Could also call him don rabbia, that's funny (priest rabies/anger).

(Upon me enquiring specifically about the Venetian dialect, Silvia said this:) Technically if you wanted to go full Venetian he'd be called "el don rabià" (in the case of Don Rabbia). In the case of don can pazzo, it would be Don Can Pàzo, that z would be soft, almost like an s. Like..."el Don Can Passo." Venetian dialect always wants the article, even with proper names.'

*

The upshot is I think you have some choices here, but that Don Can' Pazzo wouldn't read quite right even though you *are* right that cane would get shorted to can.

Silvia knows Veneto dialect which is not the same as, but very similar to Venetian dialect (due to proximity) and she also visits Venice regularly due to it being so close (which is wild to me, as someone who lives in Western Australia). Anyway if she says anything else about this I will add more in a reply!! But I think this is a good place to start with explanations, possible issues, and differences specific to the Venetian dialect to keep in mind.

[winterbird]

Silvia then sent me this YouTube Short to indicate the differences between Italiano / Veneto dialects, and how you can see that the Veneto (and subsequently the Venetian) dialects shorten and soften in many cases, and there's more c/s sounds. (Though I think at this point she was mostly just excited to share about it so I felt like passing it on skadljfs good luck with your story and writing!)

[dinogrrl]

This is all such great information, tell your friend thank you so much! I really appreciate all the extra detail she gave, this is hugely helpful. :)

[winterbird]

You're so welcome! She's been my beta reader for many years (despite having English as a second language) and she's a legend.

I appreciated that she gave different options and explained *why* don can pazzo would sound a bit odd to a native speaker. I didn't know the differences between the Venetian and Italiano dialects myself, so I've learned a lot. :D

[dinogrrl]

The extent of my Italian knowledge is from being a classical musician, which is not helpful in this context :p but yeah, another character in the story (the child character's father, actually) is known for being able to switch accents/dialects to conceal his identity, so having more detail on what that would entail is excellent for my reference.